I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

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Grorx
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I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Grorx »

My one big concern: is Rey a Mary Sue? I thought the actress was totally fine, it's the character I have a problem with.


Awesome at mechanics, piloting, and suddenly has all sorts of force skills that she has no training in, can mind trick people (did she even know that was an option?), and can decently lightsaber fight against a trained killer?

On the whole, it was a lot of fun, and I certainly enjoyed it.

Grorx
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Grorx »

Bottom line: I think it is good, very solid, but once the hype calms down I think people will see its flaws more and it will settle into the "pretty good but not the best" realm.

Namrok
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

During the entire scene where she's trying to mind control the guard, I was hoping they'd turn the trope on it's head and just have it flat out not work. And they almost did. Then they pussied out. Very disappointing.

But as for the rest, I thought they had compelling enough reasons for her to be good at what she does. She scavenged and fought over scraps since childhood on Jakku. Plus, Kai Ren was wounded, increasingly so by the time he got around to fighting Ray. And clearly unbalanced as well.

For now I can talk myself into liking her, although I wish they paced her progress better. Luke never fought with a Light Saber in the first film, lost his only significant fight in the second, and never really won against Darth Vader in the third, although he did show he was at least Vader's equal. Still, I'm curious to see where this goes.

Namrok
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

You know, thinking about that force mind control scene, it's even worse than I thought. Because I'm not sure Rey even has a basis to know that's a thing. She never saw Kylo Ren do it. I don't think we even saw Kyle Ren do it. We saw him read minds but that's about it.

So how the delay does she know that's even a thing that can be done? All we know is that she has heard vague stories about the Jedi and the Galactic Civil War, but we never find out exactly what she knows, and it sounds like she knows very little, and most of it might be wrong.

It's almost a fourth wall breaking "So that's what the voices are" type scene. Just raw fan service with no basis inside the actual script.

Grorx
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Grorx »

Yes nammy, come to the Grorx side... you know it to be true...

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Ishpeck
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Ishpeck »

The mind trick scene didn't seem any more weird than the other heavy handed fan fiction-style references they shoe horned into the imagery.

Namrok
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

I donno, I thought a lot of the fan service served two purposes very well.

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Ishpeck
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Ishpeck »

Namrok wrote:I donno, I thought a lot of the fan service served two purposes very well.
Go on. ..

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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

For example, I loved the scene where Han just goes "How do we blow it up? You can always blow it up." Because it pokes the forth wall slightly, and also makes him come off as a bit senile. I loved the holochess reference, because it helps establish the world just a well as in A New Hope, but it was also that perfect mix of old and new.

I consider this somewhat separate from the re-used plot elements. But you know what, in a world where I get re-used plot elements, or I get fucking Trade Federation Disputes, give me another fucking Death Star. A lot of people have commented that this is almost a soft reboot of Star Wars, practically retelling A New Hope with parts of Empire Strikes Back. I'm hoping the new trilogy can branch off and go it's own way from here, now that it's established its Star Wars cred.

IMHO it was almost a perfect sequel/reboot/revival. It had to reuse plot points, otherwise it would feel too different, and not enough like Star Wars. It may have got slightly too far into retread territory, but only slightly. I'm honestly really excited to see where it goes from here.

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Rotten
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Rotten »

Grorx wrote:My one big concern: is Rey a Mary Sue? I thought the actress was totally fine, it's the character I have a problem with.


Awesome at mechanics, piloting, and suddenly has all sorts of force skills that she has no training in, can mind trick people (did she even know that was an option?), and can decently lightsaber fight against a trained killer?

On the whole, it was a lot of fun, and I certainly enjoyed it.
Yeah. *nods*

She's british, female, thin, beautiful, and has basically no flaws whatsoever! She can fix ships, fight, morally unassailable. Basically perfect in every conceivable way.

Yes it annoyed me.

Apparently we're not alone:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... ff&tbm=nws

Namrok
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

Not sure I'm on board with her being a Mary Sue, if only because of a technicality. A Mary Sue character usually has a fan fiction like element of author self insertion and wish fulfillment. They aren't even necessarily perfect, but they/the author are always the center of attention and somehow possess whatever grab back of skills is needed in any situation.

Rey really doesn't have that same element of author wish fulfillment, at least that I know of, scripts are all written by committee these days. To me she just seemed in the same class of character as House, Sherlock, etc. She's pretty antisocial and averse to forming relationships, but she's good at everything.

Maybe it's just not a character type that works as well with female characters.

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Ishpeck
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Ishpeck »

Namrok wrote:A Mary Sue character usually has a fan fiction like element of author self insertion and wish fulfillment.
This really doesn't preclude her from being a Mary Sue. The fact that Spock isn't around to seduce is more an indication that it doesn't count.

I've noticed that writers these days have a pathological need to have flawed characters to the point where somebody even with slightly above average skills is shunned as wish fulfillment writing.

It's okay to have a little bit of superiority in a character. It doesn't have to ruin a whole story.


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Rotten
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Rotten »

Ugh. Yeah not on board with listening to this dude for more than a single minute.

Namrok
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

I think Razorfist is off the mark on this one. I'm especially annoyed at the forced comparisons between the romantic dialog. Is it as poorly written? Possibly when viewed in a vacuum. However, in Force Awakens, it's acted better, framed better, and mercifully brief compared to the "love" scenes in the prequels that drag on forever and ever. Plus, the cheesy dialog he picks out for Fin specifically doesn't work. He's a thirsty beta male, falls in love with the first girl he sees, and she barely give a delay when he says that cheesy "And I ran into you" line. Which is about the proper reaction to that line at that time. It also shows how naive Fin is, having been conditioned since birth to be a stormtrooper.

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Ishpeck
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Ishpeck »

Rotten wrote:
Ugh. Yeah not on board with listening to this dude for more than a single minute.
The amount of annoying shit I've seen you celebrate makes me scratch my head at this.

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Rotten
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Rotten »

Ishpeck wrote:
Rotten wrote:
Ugh. Yeah not on board with listening to this dude for more than a single minute.
The amount of annoying shit I've seen you celebrate makes me scratch my head at this.
I post it, doesn't mean I listen to it. :)

Namrok
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Re: I have seen new star wars (spoilers)

Post by Namrok »

Well, I just saw it for the second time with a bunch of other nerds from life and stuff.

Just as good the second time. I still think this is a Star Wars film that can go the distance with repeated viewings.

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